tv Supreme Court Food Traditions CSPAN July 2, 2016 8:45am-10:01am EDT
night on 8:00 eastern. part two will air sunday night on 9:00 eastern on c-span2. next, justices ruth bader ginsburg and sonia sotomayor shared information about the supreme court food tradition. including topics of conversation at shared meals. we also learn about customs dating back to the 19th and 20th century, dating -- according to supreme court curator. this took place at the smithsonian museum of natural history here on c-span and washington, d.c.. >> we are thrilled to see so many people here for this program. my name is john gray, and i have the privilege of being the director of your museum of american history. particularly on nights like tonight when we can look at
american history and unique and unusual ways. we are honored to be joined tonight by our panel. supreme court justice ruth bader ginsburg. [applause] >> supreme court justice sonya sotomayor. [applause] kathryn fitz. [applause] >> and supreme court publications director, kyra cushman. [applause] >> it is now my privilege to introduce the 13th secretary of the institution. he is a certified radiologist jazz musician, and former , president of cornell
university and university of iowa. he has interest in learning as wide as the smithsonian, and, most importantly tonight, he is a pescatarian. [applause] >> thank you for the introduction, and thank you on behalf of the american people for the great job you do. so innovative and creative at this amazing museum. [applause] >> especially in such an interesting election year, we appreciate all you and your colleagues are doing to share so many aspects of the story of america, and inspire us with that story. esteemed colleagues and friends, welcome to this unique opportunity to find out more about the highest court in the land, and how its members have
-- and dined t ogether. since the 19 century, the chief justice is served as the smithsonian board of regents. i am indebted to chief john roberts for his work in this capacity and guidance that he showed me in my first year at the smithsonian. justice sotomayor and justice ginsburg, i thank you for your crucial work which underpins our democracy. thank you. [applause] >> i know i speak for everyone by saying, you are pioneers, role models, and exemplar the -- exemplars of the nuanced and
simple thinking which undergird the american law, and i am glad to say, friends of the smithsonian. they have shared their fascinating stories with us as part of our smithsonian associates program, and they are both represented in the national portrait gallery. the painting also features justice kagan and former justice o'connor. i invite all of you, if you haven't, to see it, it is on display through october. the national postal museum has stamps that feature legal giants. this very collection has the rope that sandra day o'connor wore on her first day when she , was sworn in as the first female justice in the supreme court. the seismic shifts and our nation's history have been characterized by struggle. the politics have been frequently hotly contested. as this year's contentious
presidential election unfolds, it is good to remember that politics can end at the edge of a plate. this is because food brings us altogether. it is communal. it is ritual. food has always bound civilization. it is evident in the centuries-old tradition of breaking bread. one of my favorite variations of the term is, it is hard to remain enemies when you have broken bread together. nothing exemplifies that sentiment more than the close relationship shared by justice ginsburg and the late justice antonin scalia. the picture of the two of them on top of an elephant in the top me was trip to india, to , worth many thousands of words. these brilliant colleagues put that aside when breaking bread.
convening people to explore our shared humanity and wisdom is what the smithsonian is all about. from discussions of current topics to educational programs and events like this which examine our common bonds, the smithsonian is at heart a place where people can come together. thank you for gathering so we can hear fascinating stories and partake of some food for thought. john? [applause] >> think you very much, secretary. and thank you to our partners at the supreme court historical society for their support of the program. we also welcome the staff of the supreme court in the offices of justice sotomayor and justice ginsburg and many of our other distinguished guests. tonight we are honored to be , joined by two members of the nation's highest court, and they come together to talk about food. in fact, this is one of those rare and special times when the
justices will speak publicly on topics outside the law. we are the home of julia child's kitchen, and so many other national treasures related to food and its consumption and production. we do so for a reason. we make the intimate link between food and our history and in doing so we help our nation understand the past, in order to make sense of the present and shape a more humane future. food history, and our own love of food create vivid awareness and empathy for all. with that, a few ground rules. first, please limit your photography to the first two minutes of the discussion after i leave the stage. remember to turn off your cell phones. it is now our honor to introduce
tonight's panel on the fascinating, delicious topic of food at the supreme court. please join me in introducing our panel. justice ruth ginsburg join the court in 1993, formerly she had a distinguished legal career. she was appointed to the u.s. court of appeals. justice ginsburg attended harvard law school and received her ll.b. from columbia law school, and served on the law review at both schools. justice sonia sotomayor joined the supreme court in 2009, previously, as part of it an -- part of an extensive and distinguished legal career, she served in u.s. district court, southern district of new york, she earned a jd from yale law school, where she served as editor of the law journal. kathryn fitz, and tonight's
author of many books on the history of the courts. thank you all for joining us at our table and we look forward to this discussion. thank you. [applause] >> thank you for that introduction. on behalf of the supreme court historical society, i would like to thank the smithsonian for partnering with us for this event and for hosting us in this , beautiful room. also especially to the staff for , organizing it. on a cold february night in 1790, the justices met and held their first session of the supreme court and new york city. -- in new york city. after they adjourned, they went to a tavern in lower manhattan
dinner. they dined with new york's district judges, the attorney general, and had a good time. they made 13 toasts, including one to the president, one to the constitution, one to the new national judiciary. so, since its very inception, the supreme court justices have found ways to come together and share meals. as they are appointed for life, they often sit on the bench together for years, if not decades. they look for ways to enhance cordiality and cooperation by breaking bread together. tonight, we are going to examine the evolution of some of the court customs evolving food from the early 19th century, and hear about what some of these distinguished justices have to say about current practices.
let's start with the marshall court era. when, -- when john marshall, the great justice who presided over , was joined by six, and then seven, other justices appointed from all up and down the eastern seaboard from georgia to kentucky. they came to washington to the supreme court sessions alone. they did not move there families to washington. terms were, their short. john marshall court arab, their terms were typically about two months long. accordingly, chief justice john marshall arranged for them all to live together in a boarding house and they had almost all of
their meals together. so, catherine, why did john marshall want the justices to live, dine, work, and socialize together? >> well, i would say that, the primary reason was he wanted to build a bond between the justices. it also goes to say the courts started with a very nomadic existence. they started in new york and , then moved to philadelphia and then came to washington. you have to remember, at the time in washington, it was not the city we know today. there were very few places for the justices and members of congress to come to washington. so, they lived in the boarding houses to gain that fraternal bond and to come together. i think john marshall also , wanted the justices to come together and speak in one voice
, to try and give the court some stature. >> when they were eating in the houses, were they had a private room or with other guests? >> they probably shared some meals with other guests. but they met in private if they were talking about cases. >> so they actually ate dinner and deliberated case that the -- about the same time. >> according to stories, that is the case. >> so there was no conference room available to them at the court? what is the situation like in the capital? >> i should have prefaced my remarks with that. when the court moved to washington, there was the president's house, the capital, and even though we had a third
branch of government, there was no place for the supreme court to me. so graciously, a room was made in the basement of the capital but that was a small committee , room. i think was 30 feet by 35 feet. eventually the supreme court had , their first chamber on the first floor of the capitol building. so that is the era when that john marshall comes to washington and leaves the court. >> john marshall had a great fondness for a fortified wine imported from the portuguese island of madeira. he was not alone. it was popular with many of the founding fathers, including thomas jefferson. apparently, the shaking and the sauna like conditions in the a carameld dave it flavor they like.
catherine, tell us a little bit about john marshall and madeira. catherine: i think he gained his taste for madera in a richmond. -- in richmond. he was part of a club in cognac, rome, sugar, and madeira was one of the primary ingredients. and some sugar thrown in there for fun. long -- one game and it became akin to horseshoes. and one of the reasons they got together was to play this game and john marshall had a role that politics and religion were not to be discussed and if they were caught discussing it they were fined a case of champagne which was consumed at the next meeting. [laughter] clare: and apparently you have
bottles labeled that he brought? catherine: i think there were local merchants who played on john marshall's on this form madeira. and there was a supreme court labeled madeira which gave the seal of approval of john marshall that it must be good. marshall had a great ally on the court, a man who was appointed from massachusetts, john story. apparently he had a weak stomach and was a teetotaler when he arrived in washington, d.c. that did not last long. he wrote to his wife that the justices tried really hard not to drink too much wine. they had a rule that only on rainy days and for medicinal purposes would they imbibe. but apparently this was not a bright line rule.
>> you know the story about the rainy day that was told in various versions. they only drink when it rained said, hehief justice looked out the window and the -- and shining brightly say, somewhere in the world it is raining. [laughter] anecdote that an you have an anecdote about joseph story's wife as well. >> sarah and he were very close and she did not like him to be away so she decided she would come along. and that may chief justice marshall a little bit uneasy. he said, it would be all right if she dined with them. she would add a civilizing
influence but she mustn't be around when they were discussing cases. she did not want to distract joseph story -- justice story from the work he was supposed to do. as it turned out, sarah's stomach was no better than joseph's and the boarding house fare did not agree with her. so she left before the term ended. but it was the beginning of the end of the boarding house. one justice or another decided, why should i have this when i can be living with my family? and, i think johnson left and another and another and it -- what happened when the boarding house style of living ended, john marshall did -- each wrote their own opinion.
eache tradition was that justice wrote their own opinion. say there was a panel of five judges, it would be five opinions and then they would figure out what the decision meant. john marshall thought it would be one opinion. they would speak for the court. there should be no dissent. and he would write the opinion. [laughter] >> it is remarkable that the early marshall court, almost all of the decisions are written by the chief justice. but when the boarding house style of living broke down, so did the unanimity. thehere is evidence that marshall court justices like to share regional food products
with each other and they were proud of their hometowns. for example, john marshall sent virginia ham to john story and john story reciprocated by sending salted cod. you have to soak it, and he was not sure virginians would know what to do with it. are there modern examples of justices today on the court bringing food from their hometowns or back from their travels? >> their hunting trips. we had in intrepid hunter on the court to would bring everything back from fish to fowl to wild boar. he was very generous in sharing. justice sotomayor: justice breyer not so long ago decided he needed to introduce his
grandchildren to pheasants caught by our colleague, pheasant --d the cooked it and presented it at home to his grandchildren but he said they had to be careful because there might be pellets in the game. they refused to eat it so he ate it alone. [laughter] justice ginsburg: another favorite was -- it is called beef jerky. it is made by sandra day o'connor's brother on the lazy b ranch, the family ranch. and a couple times a year she would bring a large supply of jerky and distribute it. clare: did you try it? justice sotomayor: it is spicy. justice ginsburg: yes, very spicy. clare: and i understand justice
breyer and justice kennedy brought wine for the court to share? justice ginsburg: very special occasions. -- only on very special occasions. it was the traditional dinner before the state of the union. one year, justice kennedy came with a couple of bottles of opus one from california. >> he also brought duck from california. the first time i fell asleep during the state of the union. [laughter] clare: justice sotomayor, i understand when you first joined the court you brought a treat from new york for the other justices. justice sotomayor: i should not be telling tales, but the colleague on this panel with me, i was told, enjoys sweets.
so i brought a box of new york pastries with me for our first conference together. i only learned later that the treats she is most fond of of is muffins. justice ginsburg: now we have our own pastry chef in the court. clare: many justices have had food related traditions with their clerks. henry blackmon had breakfast with his clerks every morning and the supreme court cafeteria. and chief justice warren burger, a great lover of food and wine and a good chef, would make been -- bean soup for his clerks on saturdays. i have been trying to get an exact recipe but it seems to be a little of this and a little of whatever was around but quite delicious. i want to ask both justices, do you have particular food traditions with your clerks? justice ginsburg: lots of them. i love food.
and so, i do. routinely on the weekends when the bagel shop was open, now it is closed and i am heartbroken, i would bring in angles on the -- i would bring bagels in on the weekend and cream cheese and and we would spend a lunch hour eating fresh bagels. i eat with my law clerks at home regularly. they come every couple months and their charge is to find a new delivery place that can deliver some food that is new for us. it is also in my clerks manual that one of their responsibilities during the year is to identify restaurants i have not eaten at. [laughter] justice sotomayor: it has expanded my knowledge of washington, d.c. restaurants.
so yes, i guess my final food-related tradition with my clerks is when i travel, buticularly abroad, anywhere in the united states that might be different than a local spot, i bring back chocolates from that place. or their traditional sweets. if you come to my office, almost always, there is candy. which is a very unusual thing for a diabetic, isn't it? me, howad a child asked could a diabetic of candy and her office? and my response was, people like it and they come to talk to me more when they know there is candy in my office. >> i can say, sometimes i make a detour just so i can come by. especially at halloween. clare: justice ginsburg, as you
mentioned, getting back to the 19 century, the justices were bringing their families back to live in washington. they became part of washington society. you were instrumental in helping the supreme court historical society get published the memoir of the wife of john marshall, who served on the supreme court from 1877-1911. so, could you explain a little bit about the elaborate social functions that supreme court wives had to undertake in that time? justice ginsburg: let me say a word about this. i was trying to get information for a talk for the supreme court historical society on the lives
of supreme court wives. and there was precious little because most correspondents, the man's was saved and the woman's was not. the library of congress found, buried among the justices papers, a manuscript called "memories of a long life." and it is the story of john marshall's wife, of a girl who grew up in indianapolis and she married john marshall from kentucky, a slave state. it is a remarkable book. and, thanks to the historical society, it is now out by random house modern library books. one of the things she describes
is at home monday's. the justices wives were expected tea for whoever wanted to come. there could be 200 or even 300 people on a monday. they would serve scones and cakes and sandwiches, sometimes they would hire musicians so the young people could dance. all of this was not paid for by the federal government. it was a private responsibility of the justices. and sometime in the course of the afternoon, the justice would come out for a 15 or 20 minute appearance. this went on for a long time. >> until the great depression and finally put an end to all of the sort of social traditions. very expensive for the families to bear the cost. justice ginsburg: but they
continue to have into my appointment with the court, a ladies dining room. it got to be a little embarrassing. so, the story of how we changed that -- the supreme court is a very tradition bound place. sandra o'connor and i thought, how should we suggest to the chief that the ladies dining room should be renamed? and she came up with a brilliant idea. let's tell him we want to call it the natalie cornell rehnquist dining room. his wife had died some years before. he was devoted to her. so we now have the natalie cornwell rehnquist dining room.
clare: let's shift gears and talk about the lunch break. catherine, i understand that in the 19th century, oral arguments went on for a very long time and court sessions lasted from 11:00-5:00 and then they were 4:30.ened to 12:00- what did the justices do about lunch? catherine: believe it or not, while this was going on, one or two justices at a time would slip behind the bench and their messengers would set up tables and the justices would eat lunch behind the bench while the oral arguments were going on. [laughter] clare: so if you are sitting in the courtroom listening to arguments, you cannot see the justices eating because they were behind the bench or a screen. but could you hear them? catherine: you could. much like we are raised in this room, the court was raised and
there was a partition and an opening between the three center chairs. but there was a partition, said -- and the justices would be seated at these tables, you can hear the clatter of knives and forks and dishes and the messenger sometimes would bring meals from the senate restaurant and if you are wondering why i have this little prop here. there is a story that repeated that to one of the justices decided they wanted to have a split of champagne with their lunch and as the messenger was trying to open the bottle, supposedly the cork flew out over the bench. oral: work some of the advocates concerned that there was not a quorum on the bench when a couple slipped away? catherine: there was. there was one instance where to -- when two members did not attend an argument because they
were ill. and we would have one or two slipping behind the bench to have lunch. so is the story goes, an attorney asked the chief justice and kind of paused and asked the chief justice, are we sure there is a quorum and at that time there needed to be a quorum of six justices. and the chief justice at the time assured the attorney, even though you cannot see them, you can probably hear them in eating behind the bench. and asked the attorney to proceed. >> a great lawyer. clare: so when did the lunch break first get inaugurated. catherine: i think it was a few weeks after that incident. around 1898 they initiated a half an hour lunch break between 2:00-2:30. clare: i have been researching a supreme court cookbook and i have found so many anecdotes of
justices bringing their lunch and brown bagging it. why would they do that if they had a cafeteria? catherine: certain justices liked certain things for lunch. i think that is one of the reasons that the justices brought and i think also because of the timing. within that half an hour, it was not like justices could go have lunch at a restaurant. and there were times when the senate restaurant was closed. when the court was meeting, sometimes the senate was not in session. i also learned the senate had luncheonette counters not too far. since the court inherited space from the senate over time. i think they were close to the senate restaurant. so sometimes food would be brought to them. clare: so in 1935 the supreme court got its own building and what were the facilities like? catherine: chief justice taft
was in charge of the building -- the supreme court building commission and one of the requirements when they were finally able to get a home of their own was there would not only be a cafeteria for the public and the attorneys because in that short window, the attorneys were also trying to go out and find something for lunch, there would be a cafeteria and the justices had -- what have their own separate dining room that had to accommodate at least 18 people and be in close proximity to the justices conference room. the half an hour lunch break lasted until 1970, when chief justice burger expanded it to an hour. so i am going to ask both, -- both of the justices starting , with justice ginsburg, so you know have a full hour. you have a beautiful dining room . what goes on during the lunch
break and do the justices all generally try to attend on days when the court is in session? justice ginsburg: i will defer to my colleague because she is a regular at the table. [laughter] >> i will show up whenever the court is conferring, we confer in the morning at 9:30 and by the lunch break, i will go with my colleagues to lunch. and occasionally, other times, when a justice o'connor came to town or win john paul stevens is with us, and for birthdays. tradition,ice whenever a justice has a birthday, the chief brings in some wine and we toast the birthday boy or girl and to and -- and sing "happy birthday."
we are missing our chorus leader because we have been told most of them cannot carry a tune. [laughter] >> i am one of them who cannot. i go regularly and it is a wonderful experience. we had lunch plans after every court argument day or morning and after every conference day, ruth comes to the lunch regularly on conference days. leaste generally is at five people attending five of , the nine justices. occasionally more. all of us have fairly active schedules so it is hard to make it even myself or every lunch. but justices will come somewhat regularly on their own pattern of regularity. almost everybody will come when
some of our retired justices returned for a visit. whether it is justice stevens or justice o'connor. we do have the birthday celebration. you asked what do we talk about. we have a rule similar to chief justice john marshall's rule, which is we do not talk about it -- different than his -- they used to talk about cases, we do not talk about cases. that is our absolute rule. there is no topic off limits but we try to avoid controversy and we are very guarded about raising topics we think might create hostility in the room. that does not mean we do not talk about politics, but it is not in the great depth we might do in the privacy of our homes, ok?
the most common conversation is about a fascinating book that one of the justices is reading. all of the justices are voracious readers. someone is always reading something they think the rest of us would like. we sometimes have conversations about interesting exhibits in the wonderful museums. that is how i learn they are here. i do not have to look them up. i just wait for a colleague to tell me that they have on and i figure which ones i want to go to. we will tell funny stories. someone will tell about an experience on a vacation or an experience with a grandchild or child. there is just a normal type of conversation that people have who want to get to know each other as individuals rather than justices. >> you missed one major topic to
which i don't contribute, but you do, that is sports. justice sotomayor: i am sorry ruth, you're right. i only contribute a little on baseball, the real sports person is elaina kagan. our colleague. justice ginsburg: every once a while we would invite a guest to the lunch table conversation. thinking back on past years, we have had supreme court justices, one from south africa. one from india. we have had secretaries of state. condoleezza rice was a lunch guest. the head of the zoo, which is the smithsonian institute.
and michael kahn, the head of the shakespeare theater. we have had the presidents of the working court of justice and the european court of human rights. we have had only two so far that have been repeat lunch guests. ande were alan greenspan tim wilkinson who not so long , ago headed the world bank. the reason is those two have an uncanny ability to eat lunch and speak at the same time. >> that stopped since i got there. >> we should start it up again. justice sotomayor: i was not part of that tradition, but i do
know the justices ask -- have fascinating guests to come join them and everyone's while we get a smaller group of justices together in someone's chambers to meet the guest. ruth, i know i invited it you when i had -- >> martina. >> exactly, when we were celebrating the kennedy center honors. and steve has invited people from south africa. i have seen smaller of that type -- smaller lunches of that type that do go on. >> speaking of lunch, i have been researching the lunch habits of various justices and i intofound they have fallen two paradigms. healthy eaters like louis brandeis, who brought two pieces of whole wheat bread with fresh spinach in between. in on the other extreme you have a justice who was a gourmand.
he loved french cheeses and wine and his wife would send in large -- giant platters of french cheeses for his lunch. so justice ginsburg, where do you fall in that spectrum. how do you sustain yourself during the day? >> for 56 years i was married to chef supreme. my husband was a great cook. we did not mention the staffers lunches. >> we will get there. >> we will get there later? ok. he was a big contributor to food at the court. he would make cakes for birthday.s for the justices birthdays, my law clerks birthdays. notin the days when we did
have outside food before the state of the union, he cooperated sometimes with others ia and mary kennedy in making the state of the union dinner. clare: for those of you who do not know, those of you who are -- justice ginsburg was married to a remarkable chef. i would like to get back to the question about lunch, i know that you have been very open about managing diabetes since childhood, how does that play into how you sustain yourself during the day? >> i am assuming that because of culinary skills,
that ruth ginsburg does not vary her lunches greatly? they are pretty simple. justice ginsburg: but my dinner's -- my husband died in 2010 and my daughter has taken on the responsibility of making sure her mother is properly nourished. it is only right because she baked me out of the kitchen at an early age when she learned the difference between mommy's cooking.nd daddy's so now, she cooks and when there is an overflow i bring it to the court. we usually do something nice together in the evening. >> -- justice sotomayor: i vary my lunch.
i shop for myself every week. the day varies on the availability of time and i bring my food in and have it put together so that i can experience something different every day. every once in a while i will order in. my favorite order in are two. one, a local japanese sushi place. and another, a local indian place. but most of the time i do eat very healthly. i have a lot of salads. i love salads because you can vary them with the ingredients. so no two salads that i have are ever identical. i have occasional sandwiches but i also like making sandwiches in interesting ways with healthy ingredients. so i'll put turkey or tuna fish
or boiled eggs but then i'll put roasted peppers on it, whateverometimes, suits my fancy to increase the taste of the sandwich. even a lot of fruit salads because i can vary those with the types of fruits that i eat. so to me eating is sacred. you should not waste a meal. [laughter] >> so it can be simple and healthy but it has to be tasty. >> with respect to food it spans a wide range because in to her well prepared diet, it was my colleague who would only eat one thing for lunch, plain yogurt. no fruit.
just plain yogurt. [laughter] justice sotomayor: i understand occasionally he had an apple. justice ginsburg: later in the day. [laughter] justice sotomayor: and he ate the core. [laughter] >> by the way, justices do have different eating habits. a number of my colleagues order from our cafeteria. i dare say that the chief orders from the cafeteria and he has a salad generally brought up. justices kagan, breyer, and thomas will vary their lunches. justice kennedy, alito, bring food from home. sometimes i see sam's fare and i think, maybe i should eat dinner with him more often. [laughter] >> as with justice kennedy
because both of their spouses are wonderful cooks. some justices like justice stevens, a cheese sandwich on white bread with the crust cut off. virtually every day that i sat with him for a year. [laughter] >> and i understand and ruth can tell me because i didn't have the privilege of knowing his wife well. she was a wonderful cook. >> she was a dietician so was a very healthy food provider. there was a time when he was on a diet and he had a grapefruit cut in half. he ate both ends. day after day. justice sotomayor: that was before my time. >> i'd like to get back to martin ginsburg a little bit.
justice ginsburg you were talking about the late 19th century and the role of the supreme court wives expected to play but your husband played an extremely important role internally at the court by being such a joyful participant in the staff luncheons. they are held at the court four times a year. and are they pot luck? no, there are two or three of the spouses take the initiative to organize them? so my question to you, justice ginsburg, is do you remember your husband going off to his first spouse luncheon and what his impression was and what he made for that luncheon? justice ginsburg: he made veal tomato which was very popular. >> which? >> it's in his book.
supreme,"ook, "chef was conceived by martha ann alito. and she thought the perfect tribute to marty would be a cookbook. so this has some 30 odd of his well over 150 recipes he had on a disc. the choices were initially made by martha ann but my daughter looked at the table of contents and she said, mother, those are not the recipes daddy would have picked. [laughter] >> i said, all right. then you pick the recipes. and in the table of contents is one recipe. it says jane's caesar salad so she contributed one of her own. [laughter] ruth, she was as good as her father i understand. i had one meal at her home in new york and the food was fantastic. justice ginsburg: she is very good.
>> the tribute in the cookbook by the spouses are wonderful. i would like to briefly read a couple of snippets from kathy douglas stone who was the widow of william o'douglas. this is what she wrote about martin ginsburg. " he arrived dressed elegantly in a sports jacket with a handkerchief in his breast pocket. his smile gave the impression of perpetual amusement as though he had just heard some witty remark. he was soft spoken. aware that one aspect of a spouse's job is to bind in an institution defined by differences he seemed eager to do his part. we departed our lunches with marty feeling fulfilled and always closer to one another. " i think john marshall would have really, really enjoyed martin ginsburg. my question to you, justice
ginsburg did he just love to , share good food, or do you think he was aware of the sort of important service he was doing for the court in binding it together? justice ginsburg: oh, i'd say both. marty began his fondness for the kitchen, i think shortly after i , made my first meal. [laughter] and he said he owes his skill to two women. first was his mother and second was his wife. i don't think he was being fair to his mother. but he was entirely accurate when it came to me. marty began cooking when he was in service in oklahoma and i jane.ack to give birth to my cousin sent him a cookbook,
and said this will give you something to do while your wife is away. and so marty started on page one, the basic stuff. he had been a chemistry major at cornell until golf practice interfered with the chemistry labs, so he treated this cook book like a chemistry book. and after the two years he was already quite a good cook. justice sotomayor: he was a fabulous baker. and made wonderful bread. justice ginsburg: yes. he said there wasn't a decent loaf of bread in the entire city of washington, d.c. so he made his own bread. clare: justice sotomayor, let's talk about your food traditions growing up. your mother in your autobiography "my beloved world" you write she cooked rice and beans.
did you learn to cook puerto rican food growing up? justice sotomayor: i'm not a bad cook but i'm a horrible cook of puerto rican food. and i know why. because i tasted the best from my mother, my grandmother, my uncles, my father. i can't duplicate anything they make. so i really have lost heart and don't try. i am now trying to figure out how to make my mother's dish so every time i visit her in florida she still makes them for me. i dutifully watch. and they're never the same. for years i thought it had to do with the pan she was using. or pans. because they had to have been seasoned in a particular way. so i've taken three of her pans over time. [laughter]
>> every once in a while when we're in the kitchen cooking with a new pan she'll look at me and say, i wonder what happened to the last pan? [laughter] >> it disappeared shortly after the last visit. but it is not that. she is a traditional cook, which to me is someone who doesn't cook with recipes. and every meal she cooks tastes the same but is better because something has changed and improved. and so i don't think i'll ever duplicate her. but i do cook a lot of other things. clare: we're almost out of time. i just wanted to get one last topic in and that is some of the other traditions of the court involving food. since the 19th century there have been welcome and fare well dinners for justices when they arrive at the court. justice ginsburg, do you remember your welcome dinner in 1993?
justice ginsburg: it was made for me by justice o'connor. and thanks to kathy fitz, i have the menu someplace here. what that dinner was. >> hopefully the one where i didn't forget to put part of the ingredients in the e-mail i sent. >> yes. it was red leaf lettuce and chopped endives with heart of palm and artichoke burst and the filet of salmon and then you had put poached -- i said, i don't remember this boiled with red wine. it was a pear poached in zinfandel.ndel -- she had entertainment from a
group, what was the name of the group? >> the metro nomes. >> yes. we haven't been successful in locating that group but the next year i knew just what to do. dr. joanna breyer is the daughter of a wealthy retired -- wealthy and titled -- entitled englishman so i asked someone to take the gilbert & sullivan songs and make up lyrics that fit justice breyer and his wife. i think the best party that we had was the one when justice o'connor retired. she insisted that she didn't want to have any party. so justice suter came up with an idea he thought she couldn't resist. it was, she could pick any movie
she would like to see and we'd watch it in the pickford theater and then we would have an appropriate dinner to go with the movie. well, the movie was red river with john wayne and montgomery cliff. it had every politically incorrect thing in it, sexists and racist. and we had popcorn, each of us, and then we went to the library -- the caucus room into library and we had a southwestern dinner. justice sotomayor: well, our tradition on the court is that the least junior justice will welcome the next incoming justice by arranging a welcoming dinner. and so mine was arranged by sam alito.
there was a wonderful dinner. he had a classical guitar player playing spanish music, which was i thought beautiful and quite entertaining. the next year, when justice kagan came aboard i decided to call one of her friends from harvard and ask what they thought was her favorite food. the friend reported her favorite food was chinese. well, i had a problem, which is that justice stevens didn't eat chinese food. so i had to devise a menu that would satisfy him and also satisfied her. so i worked very diligently with the caterer to come up with an asian flavored meal that everyone would like. i think that did turn out.
but during the dinner at some point i explained to justice kagan what i had done and she said, who told you i liked chinese food? [laughter] >> and i told her the name of the person and she turned to me and said, i'm really grateful for your thoughtfulness, but, and i won't mention the person's name, that person likes chinese food. [laughter] >> at any rate, i still think she enjoyed the dinner. and there is a memento that is given or at least in the tradition that i've been a part of at the end of the dinner. a keepsake that is presented. at mine justice alito gave me a bottle of wine with the picture of the supreme court and my name on it and the date. at justice kagan's i presented her with the chocolate gavel.
i don't know how many of you remember that during her confirmation hearing there was a picture of her in high school in a robe with an oversized gavel in her hand. so in my welcoming remarks i gave -- i indicated that i thought the chocolate gavel was now well deserved. [laughter] >> at any rate, the dinners are fun. a lot of the retired justices, and not all of them, sometimes return. and occasionally the spouses of deceased justices also come. justice ginsburg: we should mention the dinners after our musical. the court started having musicals sometime in the 1980's. it was begun by justice blackman and then when he retired justice o'connor took it on for about four or five years. and i've been doing it in the
years since. the artist performs at 3:00 in afternoon and then special friends of the artist and special friends of music at the court have dinner together in the justice's dining room. we have had some pretty outstanding guests in the dining room. going back three years, yoyo ma, -- most recently >> i just have one more question. we have time? i'd like to ask each of the justices if you have the opportunity to have a long, leisurely lunch, with two supreme court justices, no longer living, who would you choose to break bread with?
>> when you asked about this i think both of us said chief justice john marshall who made the court the institution that it has become. also, because i was so taken with the biography of marshall by gene edward smith. in college i had suffered through beverages of marshall multi volumes and not very interesting but the man comes alive in the gene edward smith biography, which i recommend to all of you. another possibility would be the first justice john marshall holland. think of what his parents had in mind when they named their child after a great chief justice. because he was, as i said
before, a man who grew up in kentucky on a plantation with slaves and then he became, i suppose, best known for his dissent in plessy against ferguson. the case that established the separate but equal doctrine. but even before that in 1885 in the so-called civil rights cases he dissented when the court struck down a major piece of reconstruction legislation for public accommodations. a law that gave people without regard to race access to places of public accommodations. the court said congress didn't have the authority to do that. and he wrote a fine dissent very
much like the later dissent in plessy against ferguson. have luncho like to with curtis who was the dissenter in the great scott case. one of the two dissenters. justice sotomayor: i mentioned john marshall and i think justice ginsburg has explained and i think everyone knows his historical importance. but i started to think, what are the important ingredients of eating for me? and the first is good conversation. intellectual conversation. john marshall fills that bill. second, good food. and i would have wanted to have harland there with his platter of french cheeses. [laughter] >> because i love good food. and cheese to boot.
and then story telling. thurgood marshall, i understand, was a justice who was on the court over 20 years. and i am told by some of my colleagues that he never told a story twice. i would have loved to have been in conversation with him and hear some of his stories. so that would be the perfect dinner table for me. justice ginsburg: one justice as much as i admire him, i would not want him as my dinner partner and that was justice brandeis. one of his friends reported that if you were were invited to dinner at their home you would eat before and after. [laughter] >> i second that decision.
>> we've covered a lot here tonight. before i close i just want to ask my three panelists is there anything else you'd like to bring up that we haven't talked about? >> what did we forget? >> i don't know. >> i have to look as well. >> i just think we should give clare a round of applause for putting this together. [applause] clare: actually before we close i would like to put a pitch out to the audience tonight if any of you know of any recipes or anecdotes about supreme court justices and food please get in touch with me because i am writing a cookbook. i would also send a plea to all of you to go to supre
mecourthistory.org where we have supporting materials about the event tonight. more information about a lot of the topics covered. we also have copies of chef supreme the martin ginsburg cookbook, the memoir, and justice sotomayor's splendid autobiography, "my beloved world." we have signed copies of that on on our website, supremecou rthistory.org and we have some i think tonight in the hall. so now please join me in thanking our distinguished panelists for such a fascinating conversation. [applause] >> thank all for coming. please remain seated as the panelists leave the stage. [applause]
>> thank you, ladies and gentlemen. again, please, remain seated until the panel has left. announcer: this weekend on tour.'s cities we will explore the history and literary life of utah. book,l visit moon's rare he has collected rare books for 30 years. he will show cast -- showcase his great finds and an original copy of thomas payne "common
sense." >> he wanted to have this printed and he wanted the to buy soldiers mittens . after it went through three printings, they had a falling and sell thomas payne about anybody to print it and he lowered the price and that anyone can print it and that is the reason why the book is so well-known. >> j spencer flume and talks americati-mormonism in and their current struggles as a religious minority. thatey fit awkwardly in because they are not only a religious minority, but they are a religious minority that over time have figured in disproportionately visible ways in the debates about religion. announcer: and american history tv takes a tour of the brigham young museum of paleontology and see the dinosaur fossils collected by dr. jensen, curator about museum, rod, talks
how the fossils were gathered in utah and surrounding states. >> when you can hide the armature and the steel supports, alive inl looks more the sense that you get the feeling that these are bones, but it brings life to the bones. announcer: the professor of after mormon about pioneers settled and began setting up satellite communities and 33 mormon families established the settlement of provo. twoh c-span's city tour's provo, utah. sunday afternoon at two all caps on american history tv on c-span3. working with our cable affiliate and visiting cities across the country.
announcer: this weekend on "road to the white house rewind." we look back at the 1968 presidential campaign conventions. here's a preview. the do not promise millennium in the morning and i do not promise we can eradicate property -- poverty. as you promise action, a new policy for peace of broad and for justice at home rigged look at our problems abroad. do you realize that we face the stark truth that we are worse off than every area of the world the night we were when president eisenhower left office eight years ago. that is the record. [applause] president nixon: there is only one answer to the record of failure and that is the complete
constipated of those responsible for the failures in that record. [applause] president nixon: the answer is the complete reappraisal of america's policies and every section of the world and we will begin with vietnam. we all hope in this room there negotiations may bring an honorable and to the war and we will say nothing during this campaign that might destroy the chance. with ther is not ended people choose in november, the choice will be clear. here it is, for four years this administration has had proposals -- at its disposal, the greatest military advantage than one nation has ever had over another . for four years, american fighting men have set a record for courage and sacrifice unsurpassed in our history. this administration has have the support of the loyal opposition for the objective of taking an
honorable end to the struggle. military so much economic power been used so ineffectively and after all of this time and all of the sacrifice and all of this support, there is still no end insight, then i say that time has come for the american people to turn to new leadership, not tied to the mistakes and policies of the past. that is what we offer to america. [applause] announcer: watch more from the 1968 republican and democratic conventions sunday at 10:00 a.m. eastern on the weekly series "road to the white house rewind ." american history tv, only on c-span3. [applause] the hard-fought primary season is over with historic conventions to follow this summer.
delegatesan as the consider the nomination of the first woman ever to head a major political party and the first non-politician in several decades. watch live on c-span. listen on the c-span radio app or get video on demand at c-span.org. you have a front row seat to every minute of both conventions beginning-span, monday, july 18. ♪ >> each week, "american artifacts" takes viewers into archives, museums, and historic sites around the country. up next, we visit the smithsonian national air and space museum located on the national mall in washington, d.c. our tour guide is valerie neal. head of the space history department at the museum, who shows us story -- artifacts that tell the stories of space length --