tv Bloomberg Technology Bloomberg January 24, 2020 5:00pm-6:00pm EST
taylor: i'm taylor riggs in san francisco. in for emily chang. this is "bloomberg technology." coming up in the next hour, women on board. goldman sachs will not back companies on board if the directors are white straight men. what recent tech ipos stack up under the mandate. a $2 trillionach valuation by the end of 2021. posh marks push.
we talk about special commerce and sustainable retail with the posh mark co-founder. what shoppers and entrepreneurs want is in our special theories retail transform. top story.r goldman sachs making a stand against all white male boards. goldman will refuse ipos unless the company's board has at least one person who is not white, male, or straight. goldman is the biggest underwriter of ipos in the u.s. joining us is add the aftermath -- abby and jeff. this seems like this could be real change. goldman has significant influence. they were the top u.s. underwriter last year, one of the top three in the last decade. it is more than a pr stunt. >> even if there is never an ipo they refuse to do, they will probably make everyone who wants
goldman to underwrite it to have a diverse board. that's more likely to happen. the tail will wag the dog into doing what it has to have done instead of refusing business. it is kind of p.r., but an ultimatum that they will enforce it before the pum company goes public. you in.t to put the interesting thing is you are seeing a lot of ipos in the tech space. this could have some significant ramifications for the tech sector. >> that is right. the pressure has been building for quite a while for people to pay attention to a lot of the issues. diverse boards is at the lead of that. what we are seeing relating to technology, where there are a lot of companies built up over time that aren't paying attention to these issues, also the spotlight is on them. they really have to step up and
pay attention to these pressures they are getting from all different sides. taylor: we were talking about not having an all white, all straight male board, but the definition of diversity is changing, as well. it is not just including women. how do you see them including more diversity in the corporate board? >> the gender diversity has gotten most of the attention. it is easier to tell when you're looking at an f1 usually. also, i think it's because it was so disproportionate when you look at our society, employees, customers, shareholders, disproportionate gender issues. there's a lot more attention paid to different types of divers, which has a lot to do with why diversity is important to begin with and the value of diversity being more around bringing in other perspectives and having a good, constructive,
may a debate, but a healthier and more value added to the board when you look at it through a few different lenses. that's why diversity matters. taylor: you were looking at this story, focusing on july 1, the u.s. and europe, notably excluding asia. we talk about technology, a lot of the big tech ipos are coming from asia. his goldman sachs maybe not going far enough i excluding asia from the conversation? >> the majority of their business is in the u.s. and europe. it is complicated. by the criteria they set, every board in asia is already diverse, because it has a dominance of asian people, which the u.s. counts as diverse. when you talk about diversity outside of the u.s., it looks different. we look at race, most of the rest of the world does not consider race the same u.s. does. for most of the world, gender is the diversity. by that measure, asia still
looks pretty bad. if they were to extend it to asia, i will guess there will be more ipos that will have trouble and more resistant to this, which is why it may be taking longer to bring asia in. taylor: we talk about including diversity in the ipo stage. what about before that moment, the founding of the companies? how do we include this before we get to the ipo stage? >> you have to figure out how to fix funding. when you look at the scarce amount of money available from diverse funds to begin with, and all the research suggests how a company starts out is how they will end up. if a company starts out with five men, it will look like that three years ago if you don't have women joining at the beginning, if they are not empowered to fund these companies, you will not see the difference years from now. that has happened repeatedly now. it has to be not just from pre-ipo, but from foundation.
the founders have to be more diverse. >> your take on that? >> you are going into a really interesting part about all of this. we looked at the last dozen ipos in 2020, or what is queued up to go into the next week, what is phenomenal is in those seven ipos, there is one company where they have had 2 women on the board for more than a year. all of the rest of them have women teed up to be nominees among the completion of the ipo or have gone on in the last couple of months. what is really important is checking the box and putting a woman or any diverse person on the board falls way short of what the whole point is about having diverse boards. taylor: you take a look at the s&p 500, it seems some of these larger cap companies have done better jobs than some of the smaller startups, where there has been a sense of checking the box to get to the ipo. why is it some of these
multinational companies are doing a better job, yet some startups, which is supposed to be innovative culture, can't get there? >> i think it is visibility. pressure is on. you have a broader shareholder base. the work of blackrock and vanguard is really sort of coming into bear. if you think about who picks the boards, it is the shareholders. go back to how these companies are being founded, who is behind them. we need to start at that earlier stage level. bringing more diversity under your board two years, three years, four years before you go public is going to help the company be more ready to be public. it is really win-win. taylor: what do you think when you take a look? >> a key part, this is the equivalent of blackrock or vanguard saying they are not going to vote for the boards anymore. now you have this line in the sand for ipos. companies are thinking what they need to do two or three years from now to go public.
i think goldman learned something from we work. they were a part of that. they came to the market without a diverse board. people started asking questions. pretty soon, there is no ipo. taylor: who is next after goldman? who do we expect to come out next? and asked both jp morgan morgan stanley, they are not volunteering. citigroup put out some pay numbers, intel put out numbers on their workforce, gender, race, pay, and they are still the only ones who have done that. just because somebody leaves doesn't mean somebody will going -- leads doesn't mean someone will follow. my twitter feed, my linkedin, probably many other people who follow this, it is pretty scary to see the kind of reaction to what they did. taylor: your take? >> i will trust jeff's reporting. i want to know who is first on
the investor s -- investment side. who is going to stand up and say they will not by an ipo that doesn't have the diversity. change, they are paying attention to this. i'm looking forward to see the institution say this matters so much that they are not in without doing it the right way. taylor: activism coming from all different fronts. jeff green and abby adler men, thank you for joining us. apple's price target raised to a new street high of $400. of vaned to the analyst hollen, next. take a look on the radio, and in sirus xm.n sirus this is bloomberg. ♪ rg. ♪
apple can reach a $2 trillion valuation by the end of 2021 on the back of 5g iphone upgrades and it's increasingly valuable services business. that's what an analyst wrote in the latest example of wall street optimism. he joins us now. you know the story. come and take a look. now $1.4le market cap trillion. what is the path taking that number to $2 trillion in less than two years? >> this is really halfway through the two to three year bull thesis. we are going into the 5g upgrade cycle. right now, 350 million of 900 when he 5 million iphones are in
the window of an upgrade opportunity going into this 5g super cycle. combine it with the services business, worth about $600 billion, so even though stocks have a parabolic move, the review rating and numbers going higher on iphone demand makes is bullish on this. taylor: is the upgrade cycle getting shorter or just not longer? >> if you look today, the 300 50 consumer , million have not upgraded a phone in four months. you go back, it was 26 month. you are starting to see the shorter subset of the iphone population really going into a massive upgrade opportunity. there was a perfect storm of demand along with 5g. when i look at 5g, and i just likeback from asia, looks line in the sand for units can
be to 15, 220. more,tely, you can have in terms of the iphone 6. that's where we continue to be bullish on the name, the re-rating, and numbers going higher. thatr: we reported earlier apple was thinking of introducing a lower-cost phone in march. does it cannibalize sales, or are they targeting a different audience? >> different audience. it is an appetizer relative to the mean meal being in september. is something where we look at the interim release, it is really going after some upgrades. but apple needs to be careful. they can't price themselves out of a market. they need to cast out a wide net. they're putting a sense around the installed base, not just domestically, but internationally. taylor: take a look at another chart inside of my terminal,
which is a basic pe ratio and a valuation of apple. you are looking at multiples of coca-cola, mcdonald's, procter & gamble, big multinational, healthy consumer companies. now apple is being folded into that bucket. is there more room for multiple expansion? >> historically, it has traded with 12 to 16 times from a pe perspective. andhe services side, monetizing that installed base, we are looking at a mid-20 multiple. right now, the big thing is services. if you look at that $60 billion 2021, wevenue by believe $600 billion, we look at a sock that is a significant upset. it is rewriting. to that point and many of the pundits, you have to look at
apple as more of a services company with iphone continuing to be the rock of gibraltar. the monetization is the key that we think is just starting. taylor: you keep talking about services. what are we talking about? air pots, apple tv plus, what you like? pods, 5%ou look at air of revenue. units is where they sell. that shows the innovation. when you look at services from music, streaming, what you are seeing, as well as the overall app store, it is a mid-teen grower. when you look at the average iphone customer pay from a services penetration, only 20%, in terms of globally. asthat starts to step up, long as the streaming piece, the services business will continue to grow at a pace, and you
monetize the installed base. look at nokia, blackberry, the doomsday sort of scenarios. the difference with apple is the retention rate on the iphone, and monetization of the installed base, that is the next leg to the apple story. right now we are going into a metaphor for his -- metamorphosis of the iphone cycle and the valuation. taylor: the biggest number you looking at when you are taking a look at earnings? >> the biggest one will be around china. growant to see china year-over-year. ultimately, china is the fuel in the engine. 60 million iphones in the window of upgrade opportunity. apple needs to show those upgrades are happening at a brisk pace. coming back fromapple asia, chi% to 5% above expectation. that is the key.
a year ago, many worried about china demand. backlash.he taylor: at these types of valuations some would say there is no room, no margin for error when it comes to earnings. in your opinion, what is the biggest risk that could make apple stumble a little bit? >> it would be around guidance. if there is any conservativism around it, maybe there is caution going into the upgrades over the iphone 11. stocks had a major move. you can see a major reaction. that would probably be the biggest risk. selloffs, a 12f to 18 month bull cycle. for apple, that's why i continue it as a $400 stock.
any selloff i would view as near-term. i don't see risk going in. i think the billion-dollar beat. taylor: i want to get your opinion on microsoft. path from 165 to 195 on microsoft? >> it is the first chapter of cloud. amazon, besos one. i think the next chapter is microsoft. microsoft winning on this next stage, you even saw with the jedi deal, you are seeing more of these conversions. relieving in microsoft, but numbers going higher. the cloud piece, and we continue to see the 3% to 5% beat from microsoft, that is the delta on the stock. you can get the $200 on microsoft. that continues to be our favorite cloud play. there is a shared gain story from besos to modelo.
microsoft set to report quarterly earnings results next wednesday. heading into that report, greg moscowitz upped his price target on the tech money to $180 a share. more bullish sentiment thanks to blue skies ahead for its call product. great to have you. one of the higher priced targets on the streets. i'm wondering if cloud can live up to its expectations. >> thank you for having me. we think it can. what we are seeing and hearing is microsoft cloud momentum is going extremely strong. there has been concern from a macroandpoint --
standpoint of uncertainty, but we have not seen that as it relates to microsoft. they are clearly taking share in azure. the jedi contract that they got late last year we think is going to be a facilitator for broader, more strategic deals, both with the government and large enterprises that they don't have today. at this point, we are not seeing any demand signals that would indicate softening. we feel good about that. taylor: does the contract go through even with the lawsuit from amazon? >> certainly it adds some friction, but we don't expect any alteration in the outcome of this. we believe microsoft will continue to have that contract. we think they will have it officially awarded and move forward. timing is difficult to say, because you have to go through the process.
we are not expect any change to the outcome. taylor: i want to look at a chart i'm showing in my terminal. i'm using a basic forward pe business that shows the rate of change going along with the stock. you have a nice curvature going along. you are looking at ev to free cash flow. also 29 times currently for 2020 estimates. what really gets you to that valuation? evaluationwhat our implies. we actually look at our primary valuation being a function of two things. we do a dcs on the azure business. we have an estimate of roughly $70 for it alone. if you look at azure relative to the piece of the pie that is microsoft's entire business, it is about 13% of revenue. it is remarkably strategic. it is going to get much bigger. in fact, we estimate it will be
20% of their revenue in june of 2021. that's six quarters away. we have a lot more value that will be accruing to microsoft. we do some of the parts for the entire business. by doing so, we get $180 price target. if you look at microsoft over the next year or two, the 29 times multiple is what it equates to. it is certainly higher than we have seen in the past. the difference relating to microsoft is how much better they are strategically positioned, vis-a-vis where things were three to five years ago. taylor: we have about one minute left. i wanted to pivot to some of the security stocks you cover. how do you see some of the recent cyber threats, via maybe iran or the saudi arabia hack of jeff bezos' phone changer story as it relates to cyber security
stocks? >> i would say at this point, any change is speculative in nature. of any yet to hear escalation in cyber attacks from nation states or otherwise in the immediate aftermath of this. i will tell you we have spoken with industry folk. they have indicated that very recently, ciso are getting more attention, more airplay, from their c level executives, board members as it relates to security. it is unsure how long it will play out, but it can be a potential catalyst for incremental security spends. taylor: thank you for joining us. coming up, the hack heard around the world. our look at the best in te ch. this is next. on bloomberg.
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no kidding. we're doing all we can to make moving simple, easy, awesome. go to xfinity.com/moving to get started. this is "bloomberg technology." i'm taylor riggs in san francisco. now our biggest stories of tech. u.s. lawmakers expressing concern over the alleged hacking of jeff bezos by saudi arabia's crown prince. senator mark warner, the ranking member of the intelligence committee telling reporters "if it is true, it is remarkably serious and shows even if you are one of the wealthiest guys in the world, you are vulnerable." there are clearly intel ramifications when we think about americans and campaigns that are subject to foreign-based attacks." and tomss, tim culpan
giles join me. what has been the tech response to all of this? attachmentick an a -- on an attachment from saudi royals when you are whatsapp. as you said, even the wealthiest guy in the world is vulnerable. straightforward -- saudi arabia allegedly outsourced the software, the reache researchers have identified a couple of companies who may have supplied it, and it was in a message sent via whatsapp. it is not clear if it is something jeff bezos clicked on, or if there was an auto download function in place, either way, it is not a super sophisticated attack. it is just the kind of interaction you have with somebody that you know. it indicates everybody is
vulnerable, it also should be a wake-up call for people to once again be reminded about the kinds of information you are receiving, what you are doing with it over your phone, and how much information can be taken. it is not clear, but what we think might have happened is the information that was gleaned off of this phone was later used against him in a black male situation. taylor: you take a look at malware, cybersecurity, the way we communicate with each other, what risk does this pose in your world? >> it's all about risk and return, risk and trade-off. do you want convenience of being able to send a message to the crown prince of another country, or use snail mail and so forth? these days, we know about what's been happening at facebook, email it self is risky. look on a website and you can have all sorts of malware downloaded. most people kind of don't care. they think out of sight, out of
mind, no one will try to hack me. most people believe they are not a target. frankly, people ignore it. it is when something happens to them personally, or the risks are enlarged enough that people take it seriously. this is a big case. jeff bezos has been targeted. most people will ignore it and move on with their lives. taylor: we have a soundbite from the you and saying this wasn't a lot of control regulation. a we are dealing with technology and industry that is and that can have serious implications for human rights. it is particularly important for the international community to wake up to the dangers that these uncontrolled industries
present at the moment. taylor: it is really easy in this world to blame it on a lack of regulations. is that the solution? >> that's what the un has called for. i think we need to take a closer look at this industry and look at how it has developed. in the last 10 years, it has gone from fly where being something you can get from the dark corners of the web and use or somethingan ex like that, now it is a multibillion dollar industry, where law enforcement has a genuine interest in using some of these solutions to nab the bad guys. the problem is it is also being used by the bad guys, allegedly. sometimes it has been proven to be use. repressive are dreams that want to crackdown -- regimes that want to crackdown on activists or journalism.
it just shows how prevalent and sophisticated it has become an that we need to take a closer look. taylor: i want to fall back. back over in asia. looking at the chinese internet giant. a look at getting a new u.s. ceo for it's tictoc business. what do you think? >> they would love it if they stopped using the term chinese company. that's what it comes down to. they are trying hard to shake off the image that they are a chinese company. they want the world to see tictoc specifically, if not american, not chinese. it's worth remembering there is a chinese version of tictoc that is also very popular. they are trying to show the world it is a separate company, separate app. it has nothing to do with china. they want to hire a ceo for that company. it is worth noting they hired a 20 year veteran from microsoft to be their general counsel.
that is another positive move forward for them to shake off the chinese company image. i think we will see more of this going forward. more hiring in the u.s.. also in new york city. we will see that going forward this year, even into next year. taylor: we are lucky enough to have you in new york. typically you are based in asia. has the asian response been as visceral as the u.s. response? >> i wouldn't say so. a lot of people outside of china are very aware of what you get when you are dealing with the chinese company. i think a lot of people don't care that much. it is only videos, right? that's generally the way people view it. it is not a social media chat app. certainly people are more wary of we checked, a tencent product. so people in asia are using things like line, whatsapp, facebook messenger. i get the irony that goes into
using facebook over we checked, but we are cognizant of the differences to screen these kinds of apps, and making decisions accordingly. taylor: your perspective from the u.s.? >> this is a company under a lot of scrutiny right now. they are looking at the deal that resulted in the creation of this big, global, very popular site called tictoc. sayhey were to come out and that somehow you need to ring fence or divest in this business, like we saw happen with grindr. is it a threat to the security of the people who use it? a lot of law enforcement are on tictoc making fun videos. a lot of kids are using it. they are looking at it very seriously. the last thing they want to hear from the u.s. government is you have to separate it. they want to make it look like
an american company. taylor: finally, pushing forward to next week. we will have a lot of interviews. you are on the ground in san francisco. apple, facebook, amazon coming at these record highs, multiple valuations. what company are you really looking for to see if we can sustain the rally? > the biggest question is around amazon. it is a perennial set. the amount of money and investment they are making in their investment centers, service, and next day one delivery. is the investment paying off? was the holiday shopping season as robust as it needs to be in order to prevent to really reap a reward from all of that investment? the sense we are getting from wall street is there is a big question and concern and skepticism about whether this quarter was as robust as it was for some other companies. apple and facebook have more bullishness. taylor: tim, wha are you looking
at? >> that will be a fascinating thing. try and ignore apple, it is the iphone quarter we look at. everyone will be passing the numbers every which way. they don't put out specific shipment numbers anymore, but will look to analysts to work out what is going on. looking closely at microsoft, as well. what i am seeing the growth that aws services has is slowing. there is a pickup at microsoft today equivalent of cloud services. there are certainly in the startup scene and other areas. people are going cool on aws. it is not the hip cloud offering, but people are kind of still interested in microsoft's offering. you have alibaba and others to choose from. if you look at the various cloud offerings, that will be interesting in the next few weeks. taylor: my favorite segment of the week, tom, tim, and taylor
in that segment. thank you to tim colton and tom giles. technology is rapidly changing the auto industry. volkswagen offered several new partnerships and pushes into the electric vehicle market. in dollars, the ceo discussed the shift in the industry. >> i think it was a positive meeting. i had a chance to talk to the secretary,ion's ambassador lighthizer was there. mr. mnuchin. we did a lot to prepare. we invested heavily to adopt a new -- often after regulation, investing heavily, groundbreaking in our plant to double up capacity. we will soon put all of the machinery there to ramp up production for a new electric vehicle. we are investing in
battery capacity. we are doing what we can to avoid tariffs. taylor: how convinced was he? president trump left davos saying tariffs are still on. >> i think he is still very committed and serious about it. the administration is happy with what we are doing. >> when you say committed, committed to tariffs? >> it is very difficult to read. he stated he is still not happy. >> when you look at your biggest concern, is it market decline in china or tariffs? forenerally, i think 2020 the automotive industry will be difficult, because markets are basically flat. we see flat growth in some of the markets. in europe, we have to comply with emission, co2 fleet targets, which we have to make sure our electric vehicles make their way.
we are well prepared and optimistic. we have new products. we are optimistic it will be a very demanding year for the industry. >> a very interesting time for the auto industry. we take a look at tesla's market value surging past volkswagen. how do you explain why investors are putting money in a company like tesla, which is not making money yet, compared to volkswagen? you are making money. devaluation tells you something about the future. no big expectations. tesla is having a product that basically describes the future of the auto industry. ofctric car, there's a lot evaluation about the future car. i think tesla is paving the way. it is modeling something new for the industry. i think we are close to follow. we are quite optimistic that we
and atp pace with tesla, some stage, probably overtake. >> keep the pace. who will win in this tech car space? will it be traditional carmakers like tesla, toyota, or companies like google? >> it is an open race. i would take tesla more seriously than google. some veryour peers, competitive companies like toyota. adopts fastestch is most novelty, but also enough scale in the new world, i think they will make the race. taylor: that was volkswagen's ceo. coming up, posh mark wants to disrupt industry, and has supports from a ton of stars.
taylor: transforming the retail industries. that's what posh mark aims to do as a social commerce platform. launched in 2011, they have a mission to build a world through a connected shopping experience. for more, i'm joined by tracy son. the last 15 years between new york, and silicon valley. she is our latest guest as part of our retail transform series. how do you differentiate yourself from other companies? >> what we are focused on is we take social and commerce. we blend it together in a way that is unique that has not been done. we really focus on using technology to help people connect to one another.
often, it is through their love of fashion, it can also be what goes on in their lives as a true and authentic connection. taylor: do you plan to expand into retail stores, or do you like to be just online? >> it is interesting to see what is going on in the physical world. so many things are changing in retail. it has been fun to watch. you see brands born online that are opening up stores, and we have physical retailers who own the physical space really building robust on the general strategies. shmark, because we are unique, physical will look different. what we do is we have a very robust physical strategy today. over 1000lly host events and meet ups across the country. we think connection is so important to commerce, we spend the energy hosting the meet ups
where people can connect with one another. then they bring the relationships online into poshmark. taylor: what are your international expansion plans? >> last year, we extended to our first international country. the reason we went is we got so much positive feedback from our communities. that has been top of mind for us. canada has been quite successful. ist we really see from that the human need for connection and commerce transcends just the u.s.. canadian shoppers are really happy. taylor: a lot of people are trying to expand into china. you have the coronavirus, political unrest in hong kong, the retail luxuries falling. how do you see yourself going into china in the midst of some of this unrest? anany company pursuing international strategy looks at china. a big an interesting market. that's what we are thinking
about. we don't have concrete plans discussed. you plans too ask go public or ipo. >> we are focused on growing our community and scaling our business. there are a lot of options available. we think of them, but we have no plans to confirm at this time. taylor: we had another story about goldman sachs not going to help a company go public, or ipo didn't have at least one female director on the board. what are some ways you are incorporating diversity to make sure it starts from the beginning before the ipo phase? >> that is fantastic news about this. we have a lot of diverse people we involve in the company. i think it starts from the top and comes down. for example, really happy to share that we added 2 women to
our board. we have serena williams, a savvy businesswoman, a prolific tech iconicr, and a very female entrepreneur in the fashion space who loves our community. it is great to add her to our board. we also added retail veteran jenny mang from old navy charlotte russe, gap. she brings so much merchandising and retail expertise. it is really important to have such diverse voices that come from experience in other industries. adding them to the table and everything trickles from there. taylor: wonderful conversation. that is tracy san. thank you for joining us. investing in the next generation of trillion dollar sectors. we hear from an early investor in beyond meat. this is bloomberg. ♪
to reimagine the trillion dollar healthy living sector. it was an early investor. the managing director cofounded with the twitter cofounder back in 2014. in january, the firm closed its third funding round in nearly $272 million. thank you for joining me. i wanted to start with beyond meat. here's a look inside of my terminal showing since the lockup expired, you have people selling out. you have had short-sellers coming in. were you worried about the lockup and selling some of those shares? >> if you look at the food industry, they are going through a massive transformation driven by consumers wanting to eat more healthy. one of the pieces we have had, reimagining animal based protein
with plant-based alternatives. been ameat has constructive solution for that particular strategy. we have a long-term investor. we were very early on an investor. the company has done extremely well over the years. been someere has concern about demand, particularly in china. you look at companies like beyond meat trying to make that breaker. you have the coronavirus. are you worried about that as you expand into china? is a great hold. it is unfortunate what is going on in china. as you look into why the outbreaks happen, a lot of times, you find animals are responsible for those kind of things. there is great opportunity for the food industry to innovate
and come up with more innovative solutions. some things like beyond meat are well positioned to provide that. taylor: $272 million funding round. where are you investing the money? >> it is most known in the valley for incubating companies like twitter and medium. we started a new front with a shared belief that inspiring purpose driven businesses, reimagining trillion dollar economies will outperform their peers. we have been investing around that idea in multiple domains. in food, we have invested. we also invested in other sectors. reimagining the combustible engine towards electrification. there is a company that is part of that piece. we have invested in other
resources, reimagining the resource industry towards more sustainable resources, more production resources. just rebuilding gem quality diamonds. we have invested reimagining stock exchange to think about more long-term public markets. taylor: do you see a lot of that expansion happening overseas in china or are you focused on u.s. committees? >> we are mostly focused on north america. taylor: that was a fascinating conversation. thank you for joining us. that does it for this edition of "bloomberg technology." livestreaming on twitter. check us out at technology. follow our global breaking news network. this is uber. -- this is bloomberg. ♪
>> davos decides what the world should be concerned about. competition in streaming video hits up. bloomberg. >> i think it was a kind of last hurrah. >> harvard university president and national economic council director. >> the twittersphere and america are different places. >> and the tiaa ceo. >> what will draw -- drive markets is will be what has drawn them. >> one of the things that separates so low is inflation.